Old Testament Shenanigens

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Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby hummingbird_mywill » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:48 am

Ok, another topic.

A test of faith has come in a weird form: not knowing what to do with creepy Biblical relations.

i.e. Abram and his half-sister/wife Sarai... yet "cursed is anyone who has sexual intercourse with his sister, whether she is the daughter of his father or his mother" (Deut. 27:22) I guarantee that happened with one of the most blessed men in all Scripture.

Umm... yeah. Thoughts anyone? Also Aaron married his aunt and Nahor married his niece. I just... I don't know what to do with this and I want to get out of Genesis/Deuteronomy and fast forward to when there are more people.

haha I will not be surprised if no one responds to this, but it's been seriously bothering me lately.
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby Nehemiah » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:25 am

Man I was totally taught about this, and completely forgot what it was I was taught.
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby manicgeodude » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:44 am

that is some interesting questions that i cannot answer
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby phyro_gp » Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:53 am

For me I've been wondering and studying why God commanded mass genocide and David wrote about smashing the heads of the Babylon infants against rocks. This really creeps me out.
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby clayton » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:17 am

I've taken on the view that while all of the Bible is true to an extent, not all of it is told accurately (for lack of a better word). The Bible is like a long story and the climax is the gospels. While the old testament might not give us a clear picture of what we're supposed to be told, it's there to give us the back story.
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby Sara » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:30 am

I am weirded out by the fact that some little turd kids called Elisha bald so god sent bears to maul 42 of them. Over react much?
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby JustSkiff » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:44 pm

This is off the top of my head so if I do state something that isn't factual, I apologize. I believe both cases came before the law was given. It is also important to remember at that time there weren't many "God fearing" people, and that it was important to marry someone who was like minded in order to keep following God.
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby heavymetal_dante » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:02 pm

Sara wrote:I am weirded out by the fact that some little turd kids called Elisha bald so god sent bears to maul 42 of them. Over react much?

phyro_gp wrote:For me I've been wondering and studying why God commanded mass genocide and David wrote about smashing the heads of the Babylon infants against rocks. This really creeps me out.


Exodus 15:3
The Lord is a warrior.
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby Corvid Canine » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:49 am

heavymetal_dante wrote:
Sara wrote:I am weirded out by the fact that some little turd kids called Elisha bald so god sent bears to maul 42 of them. Over react much?

phyro_gp wrote:For me I've been wondering and studying why God commanded mass genocide and David wrote about smashing the heads of the Babylon infants against rocks. This really creeps me out.


Exodus 15:3
The Lord is a warrior.


Note: I am not advocating abortion; this is just food for thought since we're on the subject.

How is God opposed to abortion, then? The bible also says that He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. If he's all for infants of his enemies getting their brains bashed out, why would He have a problem with people melting them and sucking them from a tube? According to the bible, we're all enemies of God unless we're "born again."
in terms of the "He knitted me in my mother's womb," argument; weren't his enemies also his own creations? Were they not, too, humans? Did He not command isreal to slaughter the children of their enemies? If the old testament stands true, then God could not have miraculously changed; if such were the case, then the bible would stand corrected against itself. Jesus talks of letting the children come to him, but is that only the children of isreal? Paul goes on to talk of how there's no distinction between jews/gentiles, masters/slaves...etc. in Christ, but again, does any of this apply to those outside of Christ? This would also imply a change in God's character to be more accepting, ergo, a flaw in scripture. I've never seen any biblical proof of the whole "age of accountability" thing, and even the bible says "All have fallen short..." which would include those not born yet. This is off topic, but going back to the "equality" issue; did not Jesus come "first for the jews, then the gentiles" and do not his blessings as well, according to the new testament, come "first for the jews, then for the gentiles"? This, to me, does not sound like equality at all.

Again, I'm not advocating abortion or anything, this is just something that has always bothered me about people using the bible as a basis for the right to life.
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby phyro_gp » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:12 am

Upon further study I find Davids thoughts on killing babylonian children to be contrary to Gods heart.. There is a ton of imperfect people in the Bible, but It's there to learn from. Also It's great to know we aren't the only imperfect and flawed people in life and the hereos of the Bible are all screw UPS and God loves screwups.
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby clayton » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:54 am

I think most of the violence done in the name of God and other things that seem to be done in the name of God that seen contrary to Jesus may have never truly been commanded by God to begin with. People were just attributing their own will to gods. This still happens a lot today. It's when Jesus Christ comes that we see God for who he really is.
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby heavymetal_dante » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:52 am

Not to be rude, but I really do not like people projecting what they think God should be onto Him. He doesn't think the way you want him to. God is a vicious, wrathful god who protects his children at all costs. It's completely unfair to say that he didn't command something just because you don't understand it.

This is the God who wiped out the entire planet with a flood, and who brought the red sea down upon the Pharohs men when they were chasing the Israelites, his children. This is also the exact same God who gave the Israelites countless chances to be his perfect children even after they screwed up in horrible stupid ways, and finally let himself be killed so that every single person, Gentile or Jew, could be with him forever.

The wrathful warrior God and the loving savior are not two entities, but one God whose multifaceted personality isn't something that we can comprehend. Which, in my eyes, is exactly why he's worthy of praise.
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby heavymetal_dante » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:07 am

Here's a New Testament verse that I found that I like

2 Peter 2:4-9
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby heavymetal_dante » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:59 am

Corvid Canine wrote:That whole post


There's kind of a lot in there, and I'm not going to claim to know about abortion biblically, but I want to address some of the perceived changes you're talking about. God himself has not changed, but his covenant with his people has. Used to his people had to abide by enormous lists of laws that you find in the old testament in order to be with him. And of course that was impossible, because humans are imperfect and we're going to sin against him. Well now we're in the era of the New Covenant where not only do we not have to perfectly abide by all of the laws, but Jews and Gentiles alike get to come to Jesus. So now not only the Israelites are his children, but everyone who accepts him
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby hummingbird_mywill » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:47 am

Oh wow. This went in a different direction than I expected. I was more referring to the incest in the Bible that God was cool with...

I've had the total annihilation of nations explained to me before... it's kind of like... nations were more of an organic unit back then than they are today. It's wasn't so much a territorial and governmental thing that is was in Jesus' day and onwards. To be a part of a nation was to commit to their gods, their leaders and thus who they worshipped, and their customs and practices otherwise God fearing people who just go off and do their own thing like Jethro and his Midian crew for example, or Melchizedek. God sometimes wanted evilness totally purged if he divinely knew that there would be no repentance. Other groups had good times, and not so good times in following God, like Moab, Assyria and Egypt. So it wasn't like salvation was exclusive to Israel. I can kind of get the total purging, as much as I don't want to stomach it.

On the other hand, I agree that it's rather horrifying to read about the specific dashing of infants' heads against stones. Also, the one that really threw me off was once when they conquered a people, and God told the Israelites to kill everyone except every 10th person and I was like -_- that's what the Nazis did. I didn't understand that one.
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby heavymetal_dante » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:55 pm

hummingbird_mywill wrote:Oh wow. This went in a different direction than I expected. I was more referring to the incest in the Bible that God was cool with...


From what I can tell by looking around, incest wasn't forbidden until Leviticus. In the early days there weren't exactly a lot of people to go around. Especially when it came to Adam and Eve's children, there was a lot of incest for a long time until the world was populated enough.

Most examples of incestual relationships come from before Leviticus it seems
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby clayton » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:08 pm

I'm not so much projecting who I want God to be on him. It's just that the God of the old testament and the revelation of Jesus Christ seen very different. I also don't believe God to be a wrathful God because then he'd be calling us to a standard he doesn't meet. If God is perfect and we are called to be perfect, does this mean we should also be wrathful?
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby heavymetal_dante » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:22 pm

clayton wrote:I'm not so much projecting who I want God to be on him. It's just that the God of the old testament and the revelation of Jesus Christ seen very different. I also don't believe God to be a wrathful God because then he'd be calling us to a standard he doesn't meet. If God is perfect and we are called to be perfect, does this mean we should also be wrathful?


That's kind of flawed logic. We aren't called to be exactly like God. We aren't supposed to be Him, we're supposed to do what he has commanded us to do.

I just don't really know where you're getting that from. It just seems like you're kind of picking and choosing what you like from just the gospels and ignoring everything else. Because honestly the New Testament and the Gospels don't mean that much if you ignore the Old Testament.

Also

John3:35-36
35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

there's some stuff in Romans too about God's wrath. So it's all right there. But none of it erases or invalidates his neverending love. I'm not saying this is an easy concept to understand, people study this for their whole lives and still don't grasp God's full character. But that's who He is. If he was so simple to be understood by me then he wouldn't be worthy of my worship.
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby heavymetal_dante » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:35 pm

Also since this is getting a little off topic do we want to move this to another new thread?
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Re: Old Testament Shenanigens

Postby phyro_gp » Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:24 am

clayton wrote:I'm not so much projecting who I want God to be on him. It's just that the God of the old testament and the revelation of Jesus Christ seen very different. I also don't believe God to be a wrathful God because then he'd be calling us to a standard he doesn't meet. If God is perfect and we are called to be perfect, does this mean we should also be wrathful?

I've been studying God's wrath and love for some time, and I think I get it. God's wrath and love are one and the same. When we go too far, God has to remove his presense and that allows foreign powers to come in our lives. Be it conseqences, worldly authority, or prinpalities. His burning love becomes his burning wrath. Hince the Isrealite captivity, were God allowed the Babylons to come in and take the isrealites into captivity. Or the flood in genisis is another example. God told Noah how His spirit couldn't contend with the people. I dont think his wrath is similar to the modern meaning of the word, which is almost unbridled rage.

When I think of God's wrath, I think of a parent who warns their child to not do a certain thing and the child doesnt listen, and eventually grows up and the parent, in love, has to let them go their own way..
Ie:" You want to live your own way, you got it.."

Mind you in His wrath God mourns and grieves...
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