Gay Marriage Discussion

Discuss challenging/controversial issues/ideas here. Petty argumentative jargon will become refuse.

Re:

Postby HunterBrown » Mon May 21, 2012 9:12 pm

JWat wrote:Jesus never said a word about homosexuality.

Sorry, the question came out wrong.
I guess I'm just looking for a bible/God/Jesus-based argument on why the act of homosexuality is bad.
owl wrote:but i am going to the doctor so he can butts them

Image
User avatar
HunterBrown
death head
 
Posts: 1414
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:56 pm
Location: Palmghetto, FL
Custom Title: The Wannabe Ladykiller

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby Josh_Dead » Mon May 21, 2012 9:50 pm

Technically, god himself never said anything about it. He just told some ancient dead dudes to write some stuff down that would just been translated most likely to the point of becoming inaccurate to the original script.

But really, just that men shouldn't be with men and women/women because it's an abomination and then a couple mentions of (wo)men being with (wo)men and it being gross and bad.
IT'S NOT MAN MAN OR FIVE IRON FRENZY
JOSH DEAD HAS DUCKS!!!! DUGGA DUGGA DUGGA!!!!
ImageImageImage
User avatar
Josh_Dead
demetrius
 
Posts: 5221
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:10 am
Location: in between my headphones
Custom Title: whistle, chk, chk

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby HunterBrown » Tue May 22, 2012 10:41 am

In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with the act of homosexuality. if two people are married, they should be able to do what they want with each other.
owl wrote:but i am going to the doctor so he can butts them

Image
User avatar
HunterBrown
death head
 
Posts: 1414
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:56 pm
Location: Palmghetto, FL
Custom Title: The Wannabe Ladykiller

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby hummingbird_mywill » Tue May 22, 2012 12:37 pm

limework wrote:Topic moved 4 U.

Gay marriage...I don't see the point in objecting to it. Not because I think it's OK, but because it's not going to matter whether or not gay people get married. They're going to be gay either way. So really, the topic of gay marriage is really about homosexuality in general. The conservative peeps say that to allow gay marriage is to taint the sanctity of marriage. Well, marriage as we know it today is relatively young; it hasn't always involved the government and a piece of paper saying you're married. So to hold such things in high regard is to place stock in man-made traditions. In other words, you're not sinning on a higher level if you're gay and decide to get married; you're gay no matter what.

Do I think homosexuality is a sin? Well I think it's pretty obvious it's not the way God intended us to roll. A penis fits into a vagina for a reason. But to chastise homosexuals as if they're any worse than the rest of us doesn't make sense either.


I'm with Sean and Giraffe (sorry I forgot your name :? ) here completely. I completely believe homosexuality is a sin, but I don't believe in creating laws to try and impose moral behaviour on others that they didn't sign up for, if it doesn't affect anyone else not making the decision. I don't *support* gay marriage, but I'm not going to fight it either. It doesn't make much sense.

What will be a problem is if the government starts forcing churches to perform gay marriages on the basis of discrimination. I think that's one of the reasons people in the church are fighting against gay marriage being established, but the way I see it... we aren't supposed to worry about tomorrow. The world can make their own decisions and we'll just deal with how it affects us if it comes to that. We still have to let it be known how we feel, but I don't think politically is the way to fight this. People know that Christians believe sex before marriage is wrong, but folks having pre-martial hetero sex don't usually feel condemned by the church when they walk through the doors so I don't see why gay people should feel different.
}elisa{
What good is just one string when you can strum the guitar?
monstersforyou wrote:Any man who loves Batman is a GOOD man.

vertebrae wrote:I really have no plans to record anything in particular other than me and friends and our kitty displaying strange antics.
User avatar
hummingbird_mywill
death head
 
Posts: 1047
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:03 am
Location: Ontario, CANADA
Custom Title: theoretician of a new paradigm

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby limework » Wed May 23, 2012 9:45 am

Well said.
I'm a dude, she's a dude.
User avatar
limework
noob
 
Posts: 7483
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:45 pm
Location: Branson, MO
Custom Title: Guest

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby josh_dies » Wed May 23, 2012 7:59 pm

There are a lot of totally valid points being made on both sides of this discussion. I want to affirm you guys and say you're all very smart and capable people. Obviously I'm not any more qualified than any of the rest of you to speak to this particular subject—that is, you don't need my take on it—nonetheless, here are a few thoughts… I know it's lengthy, but if you're interested, I encourage you to read the entire thing… the context of the whole is important to each individual section.

As was previously pointed out, Christians railing against gay marriage is nonsensical based on two premises: the first being that the threat of punishment (a law) can never change a person's heart or mind—i.e. keeping gay couples from having a sheet of paper that says they are legally married will not stop gay couples from being gay. The second premiss is that—because of the first premiss—we belong to a kingdom that seeks to change hearts with service and self-sacrifice, NOT a kingdom that seeks to control behavior with laws. In fact, when Paul writes to the church in Corinth about sexual sin, he says "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church?"

For these reasons, we (Showbread) believe that the legal fight against marriage is not of the Kingdom of God.

Now, that said, let me share a few thoughts on the bible and homosexuality. I'll preface said thoughts by saying that If you know any of the guys in Showbread or if you've heard any of our thoughts on what we feel is the dangerous subversion of true Christianity by western religion, then hopefully it goes without saying that Showbread works very hard to never hate, judge, oppress or ostracize ANYONE, and we encourage our brothers and sisters to do the same. I have had several close, long-term friends who were/are gay and I've met a few very kind gay folks on the road who are Showbread fans. The conversation about Christianity and homosexuality is only going to get more heated in the coming years and given the climate—especially in the western world—it's a very important conversation.

So, for those of us who follow Jesus, what does the bible say? Jeremy rightly pointed out that the gospel records of Jesus' life make no specific mention of Jesus speaking directly on the topic of Christianity—BUT—Jesus emphatically and consistently endorses the Torah (the first 5 books of the Old Testament/Jewish Bible) throughout all four gospels. In fact, Jesus gives stark warnings against overlooking, denying or altering the Torah. As a Jewish Rabbi in first century Palestine, Jesus probably had the Torah memorized! The gospels give accounts of Jesus elucidating controversial passages in the Torah by explaining what the fulfilled law truly means, for instance, Jesus says that the truth behind the Old Testament command to take an "eye for an eye" is to turn the other cheek. For all his endorsement of the Hebrew scriptures and for every instance he feels the need to dig deeper into those scriptures, we have no instance where Jesus speaks to the Torah's forbiddance of homosexuality, either to explain it away so to speak, or to add extra emphasis.

So, Jesus does speak to every issue that goes unmentioned in the gospels by believing in and preaching the Torah. Of course, Jesus felt that the teachers of the Torah had, in many cases, badly misinterpreted it, but in those cases we have passages that reveal what Jesus believed was being misinterpreted and what the correct interpretation actually was.

The New Testament goes on to mention homosexuality at least three times outside of the gospels, and in every case it is referred to as something that "misses the mark." I don't know of any biblical scholars who are also orthodox Christians that have found a way to explain away these passages, and many have tried only to admit defeat. Most attempts to do so appeal to two arguments: The first argument being that the context of the passages forbidding homosexuality are specific to the time and culture written they were written in. I don't know of any Christian theologian/scholar that accepts this argument. In Paul's letter to the church in Corinth (what we call 1 Corinthians) he mentions "practicing homosexuals." I've heard arguments made that Paul wrote to a culture where homosexuality wasn't the norm or as readily accepted, but the opposite is actually true: 1st century Corinth made Las Vegas look like the bible belt. Homosexuality wasn't just readily accepted, Pederasty was. Paul wrote to Corinth in the midst of a more liberal sexual climate than any part of America has ever seen. When we see Paul forbid women to speak without head coverings, we have sufficient data and biblical context to deduce that what he was speaking to was a very specific, culturally-sensitive issue that was not meant to be a command for all people at all times. That is, we use the bible to interpret the bible along with history, etc. For all of the data we have, all our access to history and language and archeology, etc. No orthodox Christian scholars I know of claim that the Bible's forbiddance of practicing homosexuality can be explained away.

So, we haven't been left the option of saying that—according to the bible—homosexuality is not a sin, because it does explicitly say that very thing, and I know of no ancient or modern theological or exegetic success in refuting it. We can't dismiss the Old Testament if we take Jesus seriously, because he endorsed it, and even if we did, the New Testament is as clear on this matter as the old.

The second argument typically made appeals to philosophy rather than biblical data, and it poses the question of how something natural—that people are born with—and that revolves around positive things like love and affection can ever be wrong?
Firstly, this argument distorts the biblical data in that the bible does not present homosexual feelings or desires as sinful in and of themselves, but that acting on certain romantic/sexual desires (gay or straight) is sinful.
But either way, the argument for natural emotions, in my estimation, fails to support itself beneath the weight of two objections. First, we know from psychology that some people are born with the desire to hurt others. Most serial killers have a history of torturing animals as young children and they all explain the compulsion as something they were born with and had to fight to suppress, that is, the urge was innate. Hardly anyone, religious or otherwise, would have any issue in pointing out that this inborn, completely natural bent is wrong. Almost all people readily make the decision that some completely natural urges are wrong.
The second objection, that two people (same sex or otherwise) loving one another can never be a bad thing, i think, does not account for natural philosophical conclusions we all arrive at. For example, If a man is married to a woman who is faithful and good to him, and that man developed completely legitimate romantic feelings for someone other than his wife, most people think it would be immoral for him to act on those feelings, EVEN THOUGH they are genuine feelings of love and affection. Similarly, if an 80 year-old man develops very sincere feelings for a 13 year-old boy, most people would object to him acting on those sincere and genuine feelings of love. Why? Most of us believe it is entirely possible for a 13 year-old boy to develop and even understand romantic emotions, but we still think it wrong for him to become romantically/sexually involved with a man old enough to be his great-grandfather. We simultaneously acknowledge that a good thing, like love between two humans, can under some circumstances cease to be a good thing.

I think we often make the mistake of thinking of homosexuality as a sin and imagine God basically creating people a certain way and then placing arbitrary rules over their heads for no reason. If we imagine the situation like this, no wonder people hate it so much. But in the bible we find no instance of God creating someone with a sinister bent only to torment them with it. The story of the bible is that as a result of our free-will decisions and a dark kingdom that is at war with God, we all have completely natural inclinations that God, for various reasons, does not believe are best for us. God doesn't declare something a sin because he's a prude or just has old-fashioned opinions, sin ("missing the mark") is something that separates us from God and brings harm to us and to those around us.

We don't like to think of homosexuality in those terms, because we feel like people we love (our gay brothers and sisters) are being deemed "sinful" simply for being who they are, but that is not the story of the bible. According to God, your mind, body, spirituality, sexuality are all holistic and a part of who you are, but your sexual preference does not make you who you are. what makes you who you are is that you are created in the image of God the father and that you are loved by him. So who I am is not an author or a musician or a heterosexual or pacifist or a middle child, etc. etc. Who I am is made in the image of a loving God and adopted into his family.

So what do we do if that doesn't sit well with us? Throw the whole pursuit of Jesus away? If we have good reasons to believe that Jesus is good, will we dismiss him simply because of one issue we don't fully understand? We can, but I don't think that makes a lot of sense. And if we abandon God, then what? If a naturalist is honest about their worldview, then they must acknowledge that as homosexual behavior does not lead to procreation/the development of the species, it is, by their definition "not natural." Darwin would agree that homosexuality is a flaw or weakness within the species, as it does not promote the survival of the species. Do we prefer this worldview instead?

The irony of the whole thing is that every time someone claims to be a "champion of human rights" by taking issue with the Christian belief that homosexuality misses the mark, they inevitably fall into the very category they rail against. The human rights champion can't stand the idea that someone (Christians) believes an entire group of people (homosexuals) is wrong because of who they are (gay), and that they might even encourage others to convert to their way of thinking (become Christian). So what does the human rights champion do? They believe and profess that an entire group of people (Christians) is wrong for who they are (followers of Jesus) and urge them to convert to their way of thinking (non-Christian). They wind up doing the exact same thing based on the premise that doing that very thing is oppressive and wrong. And they say "Yeah… but… I'm the one who is right." And round and round it goes.

As a Christian, I do not, and have never believed that gay people of any kind are hell bound heathens who need to be turned straight come hell or high water. I have never treated anyone as such and I have made it my business to apologize for those that do and to explain that I don't believe that's the way that Jesus is. I believe that it is entirely possible to affirm and accept any human being, whether they are straight, gay, black, white, brown, yellow, brilliant, mentally disabled, stable or sociopathic, as a human being made in the image of God, at the core of who they are and just the way they are, loved by the father, desired by Jesus AND AT THE SAME TIME believe that certain actions they may pursue, motivated by natural desires or otherwise, are at odds with a Christian worldview.

I genuinely love my gay brothers and sisters. I know gay folks who reject the Christian worldview and I know gay folks who accept it and who struggle (and often fail) with sam-sex attraction. I love them all. I believe they are God's treasured creations exactly the way they are. I also believe that aspects of their lifestyle miss the mark of God's desire for them. Not that they are less loved for sinning, and not that they are doomed to hell for it.

I don't believe that someone can remain in openly and decidedly unrepentant addiction to pornography, or adulterous behavior, or homosexual behavior and still follow Jesus, because to do so is to draw a line in the sand and say "I refuse to ever change or to ever attempt to change." There are millions of us who are making a mess of this thing and still following Jesus. We're falling down every step of the way, we're tripping others up, we're losing our way… But we're getting up, we're pressing on, we're following Jesus. If we stop and say, no more, I don't believe what you say, I won't follow on this… then our quest is over.
josh_dies
admin
 
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:44 am
Custom Title: Band Member

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby Godzuki » Wed May 23, 2012 8:05 pm

I didn't know Josh even ventured into these parts of the forum.

Anyway,
It's hard though to love gay people and then have to tell them to their face "I think your private romantic actions are wrong because my bible says so". Being a Christian, this has happened to me once or twice with gay friends, and no matter what it hurts the relationship and that sucks. Maybe that's inevitable.


Josh I'm not sure if you plan on responding, but you mentioned the importance of OT laws, what about the ones that have no cultural context whatsoever, like mixing seed and wearing clothes of blended fabric? There are also quite a few (sometimes violent) laws denying certain rights or privileges to people with certain disabilities.

If those laws are no longer important, should homosexuality fall in with them? Is it only because it
s mentioned in the New Testament that it's still considered a sin?

I ask because I hear these arguments constantly and I honestly never have an answer. It's so rare to hear someone respond directly to these questions, also (maybe most Christians are just as confused as me). You seem to have a good grasp on the historical context though, so I'd love to hear your (or anyone else's) thoughts.
And we go chop the cialis. Cialis had. Cialis grew the uk of creaking generic.
User avatar
Godzuki
Officiando of Keeper Downer
 
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:15 am
Location: Nova Scotia
Custom Title: superbad foxy virgin

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby rawADAMkills » Wed May 23, 2012 9:34 pm

I would love to hear more as well. Obviously, if anyone read my previous posts, you know that I've had a hard time with this. I guess I have a similar problem: I find telling my homosexual friends that their feelings are sinful to be negative toward the relationship. I don't want them to feel hated by me or by God or Jesus.

I just don't understand.
JeremySexytime wrote:Confession: I've been trying to be the first person in Adam's sig because I love him.

Image
User avatar
rawADAMkills
death head
 
Posts: 3291
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Custom Title: Jan Beremy

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby limework » Wed May 23, 2012 11:43 pm

100% agreed with Josh, as if that's a surprise. But like the others, I'd like to dive deeper into this thing.
I'm a dude, she's a dude.
User avatar
limework
noob
 
Posts: 7483
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:45 pm
Location: Branson, MO
Custom Title: Guest

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby Josh_Dead » Thu May 24, 2012 12:59 am

limework wrote:as if that's a surprise
lol You tickle me. ¡jake!
IT'S NOT MAN MAN OR FIVE IRON FRENZY
JOSH DEAD HAS DUCKS!!!! DUGGA DUGGA DUGGA!!!!
ImageImageImage
User avatar
Josh_Dead
demetrius
 
Posts: 5221
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:10 am
Location: in between my headphones
Custom Title: whistle, chk, chk

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby josh_dies » Thu May 24, 2012 2:18 pm

Godzuki wrote:I didn't know Josh even ventured into these parts of the forum.

Anyway,
It's hard though to love gay people and then have to tell them to their face "I think your private romantic actions are wrong because my bible says so". Being a Christian, this has happened to me once or twice with gay friends, and no matter what it hurts the relationship and that sucks. Maybe that's inevitable.


Josh I'm not sure if you plan on responding, but you mentioned the importance of OT laws, what about the ones that have no cultural context whatsoever, like mixing seed and wearing clothes of blended fabric? There are also quite a few (sometimes violent) laws denying certain rights or privileges to people with certain disabilities.

If those laws are no longer important, should homosexuality fall in with them? Is it only because it
s mentioned in the New Testament that it's still considered a sin?

I ask because I hear these arguments constantly and I honestly never have an answer. It's so rare to hear someone respond directly to these questions, also (maybe most Christians are just as confused as me). You seem to have a good grasp on the historical context though, so I'd love to hear your (or anyone else's) thoughts.


I like your name. I was a huge fan of Godzilla as a kid—i owned every Godzilla movie on VHS. I never cared for the cartoon though, which is where your name comes from I suppose... But it's still cool.

Anyway, these are totally valid concerns/questions, and I completely understand your misgivings about having to look someone dead in the eye and tell them that, according to your worldview, they are wrong. That concern shows humility, and that's great. Here's a few quick thoughts on that note. The first being, I'm not sure that conversation (the one where you tell your gay friend that what they do in their private life is wrong) is a conversation, in most cases, you even need to have. Remember, Paul says "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church?"
I know of a church in downtown Nashville that met a young dude hanging around outside who had been kicked out of his home because he came out to his parents. They (the church) invited him in, gave him a place to stay, food to eat, company, etc. A couple of weeks of this went by before the young dude said to someone from the church, "I think it's awesome that you guys don't believe it's a sin to be gay."
Guy from the church says to his new friend, "Oh, we do actually," and proceeds to give him a completely casual and honest run-down about what he believes the bible has to say on the subject and why he chooses to believe it.
At this point, this young man who had been kicked out of his home knows that everyone there was entirely aware of his sexual orientation and that no one had rejected him on any level because of it. He also knows that they hadn't befriended him with any agenda to "turn him straight" because even as this guy from the church is explaining his personal beliefs, he isn't telling anyone what to think.

because the good news of Jesus being king doesn't mean any human needs to make any changes to know God, but that God himself is ready to adopt us all into his family exactly the way we are. Then if there is anything in any of our lives that—for the betterment of ourselves and the whole human family—needs to be adjusted in any way, the spirit of Jesus alive inside of us will make those adjustments.

Sure, there's a time and a place for talking candidly about what it is you believe with close friends, even on controversial topics. I'm not encouraging any level of dishonesty whatsoever, I'm just saying that some conversations, out of context, are not helpful and won't really accomplish anything. Especially when, as disciples of Jesus, our mission is never to convert non-disciples to our way of thinking about what the bible says about homosexuality, our mission is to show the world what the love of Jesus really looks like and bring our loved ones under his gracious reign. Not out of fear or condemnation or clever arguments, but because we believe the truth sets us free!

And think about it, everyone has a worldview. Some of our gay brothers and sisters believe that the Jesus-followers' worldview is completely wrong and we don't hate them for it. I don't feel oppressed for having someone disagree with my beliefs. I don't believe that a homosexual brother or sister who thinks that everything I believe is completely incorrect is a hateful bigot. Why can't we disagree? Just because the religious right has given us this dreadful reputation of being hateful homophobes doesn't mean that we all are. I hate no human being, I am out to oppress no one, I don't believe in trampling the rights of any person... Are my only options to violate my own worldview or to be branded a bigot? It doesn't matter to me what the world says, I am not a bigot, and my life is sufficient proof of that. I can't control what label I receive simply because of a belief that I hold.

As for the Torah and all those zany laws... The Old Testament law breaks down into three categories: civil, ceremonial and moral law. The moral law, summarized in the ten commandments, represents God's moral character and is forever binding in both the old covenant (the Old Testament) and the new covenant (post-Jesus/New Testament). The ceremonial law refers to the sacrificial system that prefigures Jesus—it foreshadows the atoning work of Jesus and is no longer binding, as Jesus has completed the sacrificial system by offering the final sacrifice that satisfies the sins of the whole world forever. The final category is the civil law, which existed specifically to govern the ancient theocratic nation of Israel and is no longer binding on God's people. The civil law includes various capital crimes, like murder, adultery, and many other sins, and there is certainly a wisdom there for God's people today, but we are no longer bound to this code.
We use the bible to interpret the bible, and as Jesus-followers, we believe the biblical story crescendos in Jesus and his defeat of the dark kingdom on the cross. Jesus helps us interpret the Torah, and the original church, which sprung up immediately after Jesus' resurrection, shows us how to better understand the Hebrew scripture (as the new testament authors had no new testament during the days of the original church) the Hebrew scripture was their only bible!
It's true that even this formula leaves a bit of grey area for interpretation that scholars and theologians are at odds over today, but on this issue of homosexuality, the debate seems to be happening only between orthodox theology and liberal theology (those that call themselves Christians and those that study scripture without literally believing in Jesus).
josh_dies
admin
 
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:44 am
Custom Title: Band Member

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby clayton » Thu May 24, 2012 7:23 pm

I don't have problems accepting if the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, I have problems accepting the Bible. I don't see why homosexuality should be a sin other than because God supposedly says so.
clayton
death head
 
Posts: 3464
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:55 pm

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby josh_dies » Thu May 24, 2012 10:38 pm

clayton wrote:I don't have problems accepting if the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, I have problems accepting the Bible. I don't see why homosexuality should be a sin other than because God supposedly says so.


and that's totally fine/valid.
according to the Christian worldview, no "sin" is labeled as such arbitrarily by God, we believe that all such forbiddances, or instances of "missing the mark," are "sinful" because they are not what's best for us and for the whole human family. Given the current cultural climate and because of our genuine (and good!) love for our gay brothers and sisters, this can be a hard pill to swallow.
But it would be a misstep, I think, to somehow label Jesus followers as mindless and subservient sheep who kind of do whatever they're told regardless of if it's for no good reason. We are all often making decisions without complete understanding them based on the facts that we do understand. Some of us seem to understand certain elements of "missing the mark" more than others, but we accept the instances we don't understand based on the wealth of information we do understand. We all use this deductive reasoning all the time.
If your worldview is not that of a Jesus-follower, you are of course, totally affirmed in raising your objections to said worldview, and you're obviously welcome to! I think, and maybe you agree here? that it'd be a tragedy for me to judge you because we disagree over this or vice versa. what do you think?
josh_dies
admin
 
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:44 am
Custom Title: Band Member

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby rawADAMkills » Fri May 25, 2012 12:00 am

Josh, thank you so much for your thoughts and explanations. This has been an area that I've always wrestled with, and will still wrestle with, but I feel good about what you're saying. Although I am a Jesus-follower, I am absolute rubbish when it comes to knowing the historical facts of the bible.
JeremySexytime wrote:Confession: I've been trying to be the first person in Adam's sig because I love him.

Image
User avatar
rawADAMkills
death head
 
Posts: 3291
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:07 pm
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Custom Title: Jan Beremy

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby clayton » Fri May 25, 2012 8:10 am

I like to think of myself as a Jesus follower, but the truth is, I've just in general been skeptical lately. Can I reject several of christianitys core doctrines and still follow Christ? I certainly would like to think so, but that's a different discussion for a different thread.
clayton
death head
 
Posts: 3464
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:55 pm

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby Corvid Canine » Fri May 25, 2012 9:17 am

It has always been disturbing, but not surprising, that homosexuality gets people more riled up than, say, gore on the internet or similar, non genocidal but nonetheless horrible violent acts that go on every day. Not as glamorous, I suppose.
I get up in the morning, divide by zero, howl at the moon and eat a bowl of surreal.

(insert blastbeat)
Corvid Canine
death head
 
Posts: 2035
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:47 pm
Custom Title: The Forum Monster

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby josh_dies » Fri May 25, 2012 5:40 pm

clayton wrote:I like to think of myself as a Jesus follower, but the truth is, I've just in general been skeptical lately. Can I reject several of christianitys core doctrines and still follow Christ? I certainly would like to think so, but that's a different discussion for a different thread.


Dude, there is PLENTY of room for skepticism in following Jesus! Some of the biblical authors themselves (who Christians believe were inspired by God when writing) openly wrestle with doubt, cynicism and anger at God. It's a healthy part of the Christian tradition!
That said, I would argue, personally, that which "doctrines" you reject can, in some ways, dictate whether or not you follow Jesus. At the core of Christianity is the belief that Jesus is God, he defeated death through death on a cross and a literal bodily resurrection, and is King of the universe. The Nicene creed—though by no means God-inspired scripture or infallible, per se—goes something like this:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.


Christian theology is not a house of cards, where if a single certain card is removed, the whole thing comes toppling down. It is built by bricks and can be rearranged. Even so, with this "house of bricks," if the brick of Jesus and his resurrection is removed, there are no longer any bricks at all.

Paul says it like this: "If Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain." Christianity does not hinge on our beliefs about gay marriage, it hinges on Jesus.

And we all have to wrestle with the Jesus of history, because whether we like it or not, Jesus was an actual human being who walked around in Palestine in the first century. And somehow, because of Jesus, one of the most unlikely things in the history of the world took place: A movement began among monotheistic Jews who believed that anyone who was hung on a tree was cursed, and that movement was that those very same monotheistic Jews began believing, preaching and proclaiming that a man who was hung on a tree was actually God himself, even at the expense of their own lives. All historians agree that this movement has taken place, and non-Christian scholars also wrestle with the puzzle of how it came to be... in fact, the leading theory among non-Christian scholars is that the first Christians experienced simultaneous, cooperate hallucinations of Jesus risen from the dead! Even for non-Christians, there is no easy answer to this riddle!

So for those of us who follow Jesus, which bricks can we remove? Well, it depends. Some bricks, when removed, create cracks and fissures in other bricks, and our foundation in Jesus begins to splinter. That is why liberal theology always moves toward a denial of literal beliefs in Jesus and his resurrection. Now, that is not to say that unless you believe homosexuality is a sin, you can't be a Christian. I'm just encouraging Jesus-followers to evaluate the logical conclusions that stem from rejecting certain doctrines.

Which ideas do you reject?
josh_dies
admin
 
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:44 am
Custom Title: Band Member

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby The_Fedora » Fri May 25, 2012 7:40 pm

Wow, I'm really glad I started this post.

Thanks Josh and everyone for all of the input, I can't say I've reached a conclusion, but I feel better about the topic.
limework wrote:
it's all good dude. i know this is super cliche but it's not the size of the boat, but the motion of the ocean.
User avatar
The_Fedora
fetus
 
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:13 pm
Location: York, Pa
Custom Title: Zac (Zinny)

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby clayton » Fri May 25, 2012 9:26 pm

I'm going to respond to josh possibly tomorrow, but it will probably be in my user thread since it's off topic. Right now, I'm tired and having trouble putting words to my thoughts, but in short, I wouldn't quite say I've completely rejected christianitys core values, but have been experiencing severe doubts in certain areas.
clayton
death head
 
Posts: 3464
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:55 pm

Re: Gay Marriage Discussion

Postby limework » Mon May 28, 2012 5:27 pm

i have a crush on josh dies did you guys know that
I'm a dude, she's a dude.
User avatar
limework
noob
 
Posts: 7483
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:45 pm
Location: Branson, MO
Custom Title: Guest

PreviousNext

Return to challenge.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron